You’re back! I love MSC!

To the best of my knowledge, when we have agreed upon a suit and only one suit has been bid outside of trumps (opp.), 5 hearts should be asking ‘how good are your hearts?’ Partner must have spade and club control. Partner could have started cue bidding sequence over 4 hearts if there was a problem suit other than trumps. Partner could bid 5NT(grand slam force) if only requiring two of the top 3 honours,(having one himself) ergo, I believe partner just needs to know about trump quality. I PASS!

P.S. I wouldn’t be surprise if I am alone here. That’s okay, I’ve been wrong before. Most will go on because of the seventh heart. When I bid on, opp have ace and king of trumps. That’s okay too. I was in a grand off the ace of trumps a few years ago, ‘just in’ on a revoke. Best story I had all year and that’s part of the entertainment, the stories:-)

I pass, because I’m a wuss… and as far as I know, we could still be off the AK of hearts.

In a competitive auction, 5 hearts asks for second round control of diamonds to go to slam. I would bid 6 clubs in search of better. With the ace of spades and ace of hearts, parnter might go to seven

7H. I didn’t need a D void, Club Ace, Spade K and SEVEN hearts for my 4H bid.

Partner could have bid 4NT Blackwood but he didn’t; or 5D (first round D control

Exclusion Blackwood with D void or DA) but he didn’t; or 5NT GSF which he can’t

possibly bid – even with D void and S AQJT+ and H QJxx+ and C KQJ+.

For example AQJT QJxxx void KQJx. So the only hand that remotely justifies his

bidding is the World’s Fair with one or two D losers – AQTxxx AKxxx xx void

is one example I can think of.

Let’s consider what the ox is doing. He should have the spade ace and a good hand, and yet chose the 5H bid to torture me. Had he bid 5D, I would still have inferred the spade ace and a good hand, else what business has he have driving us to the five level? In the instance of a 5D bid, therefore, I conclude he was worried about trumps.

Ergo, 5H cannot convey the same meaning. I think he is looking for a diamond control, (though I wonder if his hand justifies the auction). If I am right, my diamond void; club ace; spade king, and seven trumps have promoted my hand to the ‘monster category’.

Perhaps he has something like AQx AKxx xx Kxxx (grand is cold) or Axx AKxxx xx KQx (grand comes down to the spade suit) or AX AKxxx xxx Kxx (grand is cold) ?

I think a bid of 5S or 6C or 6D indicates grand slam interest by me. If he trusts we are on the same wavelength, he will know I have the “nuts” in diamonds and I am probing for a grand.

But looking at his aceless club holding, a five spade bid will likely endplay him into simply bidding 6H, and we would be no further ahead. Same problem if I simply bid 6 diamonds now.

No, partner has to take some responsibility for creating this partnership bidding problem, and we should try to use some science to get to the grand if is biddable and makable.

As Andy Risman says, 6C now gives us a chance to bid seven. Heck, partner could even bid 6D next as a last ditch grand slam try if he is not sure – this could not possibly show a diamond control – so it would be like “last train”.

My bottom line is his bid focuses on my diamond holding – as I have extras, I choose not to simply bid the slam, but instead make the most useful grand slam try.

I would rather bid 7 hearts than pass 5 hearts, but my call here is 6 clubs.

Chuck – great problem – not sure all your readers will be comfortable to answer in this forum – since if we are wrong – boy are we wrong !

I dont think my partner is worried about diamonds or hearts. So why bid 5 hearts. He must be worried about the club suit. Show the club ace and await his reaction. Seven should be cold.

Bid 6c.

I’m not sure what 5 hearts is but my hand looks and feels like a monster opposite a limit+ with partner. I will show my club control and see where it goes. Of course we could be off the AK of hearts but we might also be making seven.

I have a problem. I recognize the hand and my partner and I bid 7H, However the bidding was much different. It went 1H – 3D – 3S -P

4D – P – 4NT – P

5NT – P – 7H

I think this sequence should be asking about a Diamond control. I bid 6D showing first round control and suggesting interest beyond the 6 level if partner has the right hand.

I bid 6C.

5H is a systemic bid: “voluntary bid of 5 of a major”; when the opponents have bid a suit the 5H bid asks “responder” to bid 6 with 2nd round control, to bid 5NT with Kx, to pass without 2nd round control, and to cuebid side aces with first round control. A jump to 7H is also a reasonable alternative.

THis is almost a whatever he means you have it hand. Generally I think it should be looking for second round diamond control but without the ace of clubs? What does he have?

S Ax H AKxx D XXX C KQxxx

With diamonds bidding bid so much on so few points he suspects diamond shortness in my hand and with the CA its hard to put together a hand that has an opening bid.

I bid 7H

5H seems clear to bid or pass based on my Diamond holding. I am interested in going to the grand, but don’t think I can quite bid it myself. It is possible that partner doesnt have the AS, and has the AD, or even worse, the KQ or KJ of Diamonds.

Qbidding 6D should actually be denying first round control of Clubs…So partner, without a probable first round control in Clubs (ie, a void) will never bid 7.

If I qbid 6C, hopefully partner will realize that this is a grand slam try, and that I must also have first round control of Diamonds to make this try…I mean, why didn’t I just bid 6H if I had a Diamond loser? My 6C bid is a grand slam try. Also, partner should question why I didn’t bid 7H directly, and this must now point to the Heart and Spade suits…partner should now bid 7H with first round control of both suits.

So, although I don’t think I make it easy for partner, but I bid 6C.

Finally, Linda, you need to call a director because your sample hand has 14 cards.

How stupid of me to think partner would have bid 4S over 4H looking at the ace and make my life easy. I bid 6 clubs and pass 6H if he is unable to go the distance.

The way I would interpret the 5H bid is asking about the quality of my trump suit. Since I am missing both the trump A and K, I shall pass.

With no Q-bidding of Spades and Clubs, 5 Hearts has to ask about trumps, therefore a pass is correct. A 4 Spade bid followed by 5Hearts after 5Clubs would ask about Diamonds.

I think I have the best hand for parner’s 5 hearts which I think is asking for 1st or 2nd round control in diamonds. I cant conceive a hand with their bidding that doesnt hold Ace of spades and AK of hearts.(Im not sure why they didnt start cuebidding the spade control but Im bidding 7 hearts trusting I have what they are looking for ie the club ace and the diamond void.

It is hard to envision a hand where Responder has both black suits covered and cares only about Opener’s trump or diamond holding!

1H (2D) 5H directly would ask about diamond controls. Responder is not cue-bidding because he does not have 1st round controls in any of the side suits. His hand should be something like Qx AKxxxx Kx KQJ.

7H. Chuck’s hand has to be a rock. I am willing to bet a boatload of west coast prawns on it. Maybe something like: Ax AKxx xxxx KQx or better. If he is missing 3 or more keycards (say AC, AD, AS), he will leave well enough alone and pass my 4H bid….he has seen me bidding on a wing and a prayer many times. If he is missing 2 aces, he will start a cuebid sequence. He didn’t do that, so he must be missing only 1 keycard. Since I have the A C, I bid 7H. Otherwise, I would only raise to 6H.

i interpret the 5h bid to mean, bid six hearts with second round control in diamonds. with the diamond void, i would bid 6d to show first round control and leave it up to partner to go to 6 or 7 hearts

I will bid 6C in this convoluted auction to show my first round control and see what develops with my 5 loser hand.

I bid a mundane 6H as pard’s cards are all working. He won’t have any D values.

7H. Second choice 6C. Can’t imagine a hand partner has to invite when I have all this. Partner is missing the CA (I don’t think the opponents have 11 clubs) and the SK. I’d guess something like:

S A Q x

H A K x x

D x x x

C K Q x

Even so, partner might have bid 4S, then 5H over 5C, then 7H over 6D.

Your original 4 heart bid was timid. Probably 5 clubs would have been better, though could be misconstrued as a 2 suiter, anticipating their 5 diamonds….but may well show the diamond void by inference.

The three diamond call.: Assuming he would have jumped in spades with a major two suiter, he is not void in clubs. If he is not void in clubs, then to not have bid 4 spades he should have modest length in diamonds, ace and king of trumps, and black controls. (though as mr Hudecek points out, you would normally be showing FIRST round control in BOTH black suits) Hence the heart king. There is no sense in 5 hearts being non-constructive.

The simple bid is seven hearts.

BUT. I am worried about a mirror, and with an imaginative partner I would check for third round spade control by bidding 5 SPADES. There aren’t many imaginative players about, though.

Partner is asking for diamond control, so 6C is textbook to show

first-round control in clubs (and diamonds by implication) but not

spades. While seven seems likely, I’d hate to punish him if he has

x AKxx xx KQJxxx. With something like AQxx AKxx xx KQx, he will

mark time with 6D (then 7H).

To elaborate/expand on yesterday’s comment :

I think the consensus is that the 5 diamond call demands contracting for slam even if you have SECOND round control. (trump ask doesn’t make sense here). Therefore the spade ace is a given, as is second round club control.

[Note:Anyone playing fit jumps will not have club, or spade, concentration.]

So, it is sensible to be obliged to bid slam. Unless you are willing to presume partner to be incapacitated. Since your hand is considerably better than it might be, you should moot seven.

If partner has, as is likely, more than 4 black cards, you may have a third round of spades to take care of. I don’t have any way other than bidding 5 spades now, to hopefully nudge that idea over for partner’s consideration.

He KNOWS I don’t have the ace of spades. And that I have a reason for not simply bidding 6 hearts.

[If you had cue bid 6 clubs, partner should concentrate on his club, rather than his spade, holding.]

The 5 spade bid looks better, the more I look at it.

What would partner’s sub 6 heart responses suggest? 5N: what is going on? 6C: KQX 6D: yes, I have the queen of spades. Do you know what you are doing?

If the heart and spade holdings were reversed, then a 5 spade call would clearly be asking about dia controls. On this hand however 5 hearts will attract many different opinions since it is not clear what it is intended to mean. Partner had a very simple bid over 4 hearts and that is 4 spades. This will bring 5 clubs from south, probably 5 hearts from North with 2 dia losers,then S can bid 5nt

7 hearts…sorry, didn’t read any of the responses, just answered the question

Lots of wonderful answers, making it a wonderful MSC problem. Maybe you should send it in to Jeff. I have always had a fondness for the MSC, and wrote three (funny) stories about it, one about abstaining, one about my pending invitation to join the panel, the last (No Respect 4/07) about the fictional east west opps.

I think we have to keep a couple of factors (of the conditions of contest) in mind. Firstly, North is an expert. So presumably, she can avail herself of any tool in our formidable arsenal.

Bob asked why not 4S? That is a clear and unequivocal try, which will (in the fullness of time) allow partner over the likely 5C continuation the chance to focus on diamonds (with 5H) or trumps (with 5D) but why no RCKB? The answer – it did not solve her problem.

That is the question.

As Sherlock says, when all else is eliminated, whatever reamains, however improbable must be the solutiion.

Partner has not used Key Card because she has a void.

She could have discovered the diamond and club controls. That information was not solicited.

If she has a void (clubs, less likely spades) then she must have something like Carl;s hand

AQTxxx AKxxx xx –

Another factor might be – has my bidding been accurate so far? John C seemed to think we have underbid, not too sure. I am curious whether our partnership sees my 4H bid as forward going or weaker.

Still, in the MSC you must step up. Partner must have at least one key card (probably both) so she is directing me to look at diamonds. As Ross said – “I have the nuts”. Either that or I am nuts. For the record, it would be very different if I was playing with some random “expert” on BBO. My MSC partner is of a superior caste.

I bid 6D a clear grand slam try and a hedge, just in case I am the one who is nuts.

After the game, I an taking North and Rodney (the imaginary E/W) out for a cold one.

Thx Chuck.

C

Opposite the given hand, I held

AQ1097

AK10

J7

KJ5

Clearly 7 hearts or 7 spades is cold.

In presenting this as a problem, I wanted to clarify the meaning 5 hearts. It needs to have a specific meaning, as should any bid that is so bulky (takes up considerable bidding space). I learned that from Eric Kokish. I am certainly not the first to state the following, but this is what makes sense to me. A free raise to the 5 level of our agreed major is clearly constructive; it shows a very good hand in context. If the opponents have been in our auction, it shows 2 losers in their suit, probably xx. If we have had the auction to ourselves, then it shows concern over the quality of the trump suit and asks partner to examine his/her hand in that context. If that was not “standard” prior, I hope that it will be now. Undiscussed, I would expect any partner of mine to adopt this meaning.

Some have criticized that I did not cue bid 4 spades over 4 hearts earlier (Hi Bruce). I was concerned that I would never have the opportunity to convene the most important negative feature: that although I had a very good hand, I was concerned about those two diamond losers. Suppose he returns the cue with 5 clubs; will it now be clear that 5 hearts carries this message… that he/she need not be concerned about his/her bad hearts?

I like 7 hearts; I said so during the post mortem at the time. My reasons are best stated by others here, particularly Carl Hudecek. I admit to being somewhat persuaded by David Cohen’s reasoning, but not enough to change my mind. I am afraid that my partners will be unable to pick up on his subtleties.

Here is a summary of the responses received so far, presuming that I have done the math correctly. They include answers from 3 who responded to me privately.

6 clubs 10

7 hearts 6½

pass 5

6 daimonds 2

6 hearts 1

5 spades ½

abstain 1

Those halves crept in there because John Cunningham seemed to split his vote, depending upon whether he was playing with an imaginative partner or not. I gave as a problem condition that I was your partner. I cannot decide whether I am sufficiently imaginative or not.

I particularly enjoyed the response from Ross Taylor, even if he did call me an ox. It shows the workings of the mind of a real bridge player.

Based on the number and quality of responses, I declare this problem to be a success. The blog seems to be a useful vehicle to conduct this type of poll.

If any are interested in being notificatied of my updates to this blog, but was not notified of this update, let me know at chuck-arthur@rogers.com and I will put you on my list.

Thank you for participating.

Chuck Great to get your blog! 5h here shows a hand that has the values for a slam but expresses a concern; but which concern??: about the quality of the trump suit; or about diamonds ;

I could not see any other logical meaning and both seem like something that partner would expect me to work out without discussion! So I bid 6c which must be a try for a grand if the concern was diamonds> if the concern was hearts- he’ll correct to 6h, and on my best day they’ll have stiff A opposite stiff K. Great problem.

Now that the companion hand has been revealed as AQ109x AK10 xx KJx, perhaps the auction should go as follows (given we accept the bidding as is, up to the 5H call)

1H (2D) 3D (4D)

4H (P) 5H (P)

6C (P) 6D (P)

7H (P) P (P)

North cannot quite bid the grand over the 6C bid but for sure he wants to make one more encouraging noise.

Note North still has a spade worry – even after the 6 club call. I suppose South could have had a hand like

Jx QJxxxxx A AQ109 and bid 1H, 4H, and then 6C

6 Diamonds gets the job done – a mark time bid that is all the encouragement South needs.

Keep posting stuff like this i really like it

5H should clearly be about diamonds, especially looking at your hand (which contains cA and sK).

The real question is whether or not 5H compels you to bid a slam with diamond control, or if it merely invites a slam if you have diamond control. Personally I am not sure. My gut says it is non-forcing but a 5C cuebid from partner to wrest a 5D bid from us could be awkward — we might decline to bid 5D with something like Jxx QJxxxx K Axx, so perhaps 5H here should be forcing. Something worth discussing with your regular partner at length — as there definitely are some sequences like this where 5M is non forcing even opposite a control.

My first instinct was to bid 6C, showing the cA and first round diamond control, but this hand is so monstrous for the auction that anything less than 7H is chicken in my opinion. So I bid 7H. It’s hard to imagine this being worse than a finesse, even if partner is messing around. If partner intended this as a general 6-try and has a diamond control himself, well, you’re probably going down 1 🙂

I would bid 6H. I would take my partner to have H support!! And, why go to 5H without AS & AH.

Keep up the interesting problems.

6c: It seemto me that I have the best hand possible for my previous auction; this cue seems to indicate what my interest are:club cue, spade concern, diamond first round control, and good playing strength. It seems unfair to pass out of untold fear.

My partner’s cuebid showed a “good” heart raise. So, coupled with the raise to 5H, I would assume that this problem is not about whether 6H is viable, it’s about the advisability of 7. With that in mind, I’d like to make 2 cuebids in an effort to locate the specific cards needed to bid the grand, without getting beyond 6H. I’ll start with 5S and over 5NT, I’ll continue with 6C. If instead, Partner chooses to bid 6C, I’ll continue with 6D. If Partner signs off in 6H over either 5S or 6C…well…I tried. (We might be too high already.) This series of actions is not without risk. but give full credit to the opposition for crowding our auction.

I have a moose I think, and will bid 6C. I think this shows the club ace and an inferred diamond control. I believe partner’s bid is invitational to slam and also lacks a diamond control

You are on the money. Five hearts still shows two diamond losers, as it did 4 decades ago when I started playing. Seven hearts shows a minimum of the ace of diamonds and probably a void in this auction……

THIS WAS REALLY INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THE MINDS OF THE TOP PLAYERS ANALYZE THE MEANING OF THE BIDS. EVEN THEY DON’T ALWAYS AGREE. I THINK THIS IS WHAT KEEPS US ALL COMING BACK .

love it chuck

[…] MSC 1 by Chuck Arthur […]

Partner’s cue-bid is a limit raise in hearts and then he bids freely beyond game, but not to slam. He is worried about missing something.

My guess is the ace of clubs. He can’t be worried about controls in BOTH minors to hang us in the wind at the 5-level. The opponents’ bidding crowded us out of a cue-bidding sequence. He must have the top hearts and a high spade. I can’t count 13 tricks, so I’ll settle for the small slam and bid 6H.

I’m not going to get cute and cue-bid 6D. This would have to show a void and, by bidding over the club suit must, by inference, show first-round control of clubs (the ace, otherwise I’d have 2 voids). If I wanted partner to know about the minors, it would have to be because I was making a grand-slam try. Partner would look at his spades and wouldn’t know what to bid holding A-Q-x, but he MIGHT bid 7H with that and the king of clubs. However the ace-queen of spades, ace-king of hearts, and king of clubs would give partner 16 HCP and in my view, that doesn’t leave enough to justify the opponents’ bidding.

There is too much uncertainty here to risk throwing away a small slam. We should get an average score or better just for getting to slam.

I stumbled on this interesting website for the first time only this week, hence the date of my entries. I navigated through the features and entered my own thoughts. I will now read through the responses in an attempt to find out where I go wrong whenever I do go wrong.

Having now seen the North hand and the post-mortem, I took a wrong view of the hand. I interpreted partner’s diamond cue-bid as a limit raise of my suit which is only half-right. It’s a limit raise OR BETTER. I always forget this last part and in this deal, the “or better” was crucial. I just couldn’t place North with 16+ HCP.

I should have. Once a trump fit is confirmed, a return to that suit at, or below, game is meant to sign off. When North raised trumps beyond South’s bid of game, that should have been a sign of extra values.

The meaning of the 5H bid is sensible. An unusual raise beyond game but below slam should have a unique meaning, and the meaning assigned is eminently practical.

My problem isn’t so much with the 5H bid as with the bidding sequence that led up to it. I was shocked to see what North held in spades. I had the same worry about spades as that expressed by Paul Janicki. I didn’t have the courage of David Lindop to place partner with both missing top spades. I am impressed with how Carl Hudecek managed to place North with such a strong spade suit and two small diamonds. Also, Kevin Lane interpreted the 5H call and laid out an efficient and practical menu of responses that lead easily to the best spot.

Notwithstanding these efforts, there has to be a better way than a direct cue-bid of the opponents’ suit to bid a strong hand that has a good 5+ card suit of its own, good support for partner’s suit, and game-going values (or better). The modern use of the direct cue-bid of the opponents’ suit has changed from its original use. The North hand is an ideal candidate for the old-fashioned direct cue-bid and under those older bidding methods, the rest of the auction would probably have proceeded differently.

I have yet to see a comprehensive treatment of how to bid a responding hand that has good support for partner, a strong suit of its own, and game-going values in support of either suit. From bits and pieces here and there, I have concluded that showing support for partner takes precedence over showing your own suit, but surely this is just a guideline – there must be limits. I don’t agree with suppressing the strong 5-card spade suit of the North hand in order to show its 3-card support for partner’s suit with a cue-bid.

Had the North hand made a free spade call, I believe the auction that followed would have uncovered the double fit in the majors. Over a free call of 2S, East might have bid only 3D which gives the South hand a chance to cue-bid 4D which surely must show 1st-round diamond control. In the given auction, how can South possibly know North’s spades are so good and how can North possibly know South has a 7-card heart suit AND 1st-round diamond control?

Another possibility in the given auction was for South to cue-bid 5D instead of rebidding hearts. That would be a strong bid but the problem is that it would tend to deny a club control unless partner can conclude I am not worried about clubs when I make a 5-level cue-bid. This leads to the next issue.

How should cue-bids at the 5-level and/or 6-level be ordered? This auction shows that a competitive sequence can crowd the bidding into a limited space, and it is useful to have agreements in this area.

When cue-bidding for slam commences at the 4-level, controls are shown up-the-line with 1st-round controls being bid before 2nd-round controls, but there are exceptions (are we slowly moving away from that standard?). When a suit is bypassed, the inference is that there is no control to show. Some of the comments seem to extend that logic to the 6-level, but does it make sense that 6D would show a diamond control and deny a club control? That might take you too high if a club control is needed but has not been shown. The answer seems to be that a cue-bid of 6C in this sequence would show club control AND diamond control (by inference?). To generalize, it seems a cue-bid at the 6-level shows control in that suit as well as in any suit between the suit bid and the trump suit (or perhaps the next higher-ranking suit only). Is any of this correct?

I think it would work better for cue-bidding at the 6-level to show controls down the line. A cue-bid of 6D would show 1st-round control in diamonds and clubs (if club control has not yet been shown by either partner). Under this agreement, a 6D cue-bid would leave no doubt about club control in this auction. To have a cue-bid of 6C show a club control and a diamond control seems more open-ended and somewhat less intuitive.

At the very least, when looking for a major-suit slam in an auction where the opponents are trying to sacrifice in the minors, a cue-bid of 6D should show a first-round control in diamonds and clubs and a cue-bid of 6C would not promise a first-round diamond control. Does anyone have an opinion on this?